I’m doing my “Robert Jordan loves dramatic irony and so do I” dance this week, as Perrin and his party run into Morgase and hers. But of course, Morgase isn’t going to trust some random stranger, or even one Master Gill knows… especially when he turns out to be an ally of the Dragon Reborn.
Note: The analysis section of this post contains discussion of sexual assault and forced marriage.
In Ghealdan, Perrin covertly studies the town of Bethal through a looking glass. He needs to decide how best to approach Queen Alliandre. The country has been ravaged by the Prophet’s followers, bandits, and Whitecloaks raiding across the border from Amadicia, and Alliandre is touring around to remind people they have a queen. Perrin wishes he could ride down to meet Alliandre himself, but knows that it’s not the best course of action. Faile, Berelain, and Seonid all believe they should be the ones to go, but Perrin has to make the decision. He tells Berelain that she and Annoura, along with Lord Gallenne posing as Annoura’s Warder, will go.
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He watches the three approach the gates and be ushered inside quickly by the guards; Perrin wonders if they are worried about who might be watching and might possibly recognize an Aes Sedai. They head back to camp, Perrin’s mind preoccupied with Faile, thinking about how he usually loves her quicksilver nature but often can’t figure it out. He expected her to be angry when he chose Berelain, especially since she knows that Perrin doesn’t like to send her into danger. But she only became angry with him after he tried to apologize. And he knows from past experience that trying to ask for an explanation will only result in sarcasm or evasion from her.
Suddenly, Aram calls his attention to an abandoned farmhouse, where a group of people is trying to defend themselves from a group of rough-clad attackers. Seonid advises him to ignore it—the attackers are clearly the Prophet’s men, and killing his people isn’t going to make dealing with him easier. Perrin has no intention of killing anyone if he can help it, but he isn’t going to leave people to be killed either. He asks Edarra if the Wise Ones can use the Power to frighten the men off, and they ride down on the attackers to the accompaniment of saidar-powered thunderclaps and then a floating wheel of fire.
The leader of the attackers tries to keep his men together but they scatter quickly. The defenders are frightened as well, and Perrin has to ride down one woman who tries to gallop off. He apologizes for scaring her and promises that he means her no harm.
Seonid’s warder, Teryl, brings back the leader of the attackers, explaining that it’s always best to hear both sides of the story. The man insists that they were doing the Prophet’s bidding, protecting Maighdin from the man who was chasing her. He tells them that the Prophet will have their ears for this, and Maighdin insists that the leader mistook what he saw.
Perrin is shocked when he sees that the Wise Ones have actually gagged Seonid for speaking out of turn, and he notes the expression on Maighdin’s face as well—she is a woman who knows an Aes Sedai on sight. But they’re all distracted when Teryl produces a cord of severed ears that he found lying where the captured man might have dropped it. The prisoner insists that the trophy belongs to one of the other men, and screams that the prophet will hang them if they touch him, but Perrin is too furious to care. He gets up in the man’s face.
“I’m Perrin Aybara, and your precious Lord Dragon sent me here. You spread the word. He sent me, and if I find a man with… trophies… he hangs! If I find a man burning a farm, he hangs! If one of you looks at me cross-eyed, he hangs! And you can tell Masema I said so, too!”
He has Teryl let the man go, and he runs off. Perrin feels a little disgusted with himself for losing his temper, but the obvious pride on Faile’s face eases the feeling. He can tells Seonid has something she’d like to say to him, and the Wise Ones look disapproving as Teryl casually brings up that the original plan had been to keep their arrival secret until they were able to reach Masema, lest he hear of their coming and avoid the encounter.
“I’m supposed to stop… that,” Perrin said, gesturing angrily to the rawhide string on the ground. He had heard the rumors, and done nothing. Now he had seen. “I might as well start now.” And if Masema decided he was an enemy? How many thousands followed the Prophet, out of belief or fear? It did not matter. “It stops, Teryl. It stops!”
The Murandian nodded slowly, eyeing Perrin as though seeing him for the first time.
Maighdin finally speaks up, telling Perrin they will accept his hospitality after all. At the same time, Perrin realizes he recognizes two of the men with her—Lamgwin and Master Gill of the Queen’s Blessing. Perrin wonders if it’s just chance, or ta’veren work, that he should run into them here.
Perrin’s camp really consists of three camps—Berelain’s Winged Guards and the Aiel each have their own separate area. Perrin reflects on how they all travel with him, all seem to be following his orders, and yet everyone has their own personalities and agendas. Perrin catches sight of Masuri stirring stew up by the Wise Ones camp. Meanwhile, Maighdin seems not to be paying attention to anything, but Perrin can see her eyes widen at the sight of the Mayener guards—another thing he wouldn’t have expected her to recognize on sight. Lini and the man Talanvor stick close to her, as does a birdlike little fellow called Balwer. Balwer’s attitude reminds Perrin of a wolf testing the air, and he smells no fear from the man, only impatience and irritation.
Perrin is greeted with shouts by the Two Rivers men, and servants from Lord Dobraine’s estates come to take their horses. He’s frustrated to see the Red Eagle of Manetheren flying next to the Red Wolf banner—no matter how many times he orders the men to put those banners away, they are quickly raised again. Perrin can just imagine what Alliandre would think of that banner, given that what is now Ghealdan was once part of Manetheren. Maighdin observes them as well, and remarks that she has heard that these same banners were raised in the Two Rivers by Andormen rebelling against their lawful ruler.
Perrin replies that the Two Rivers doesn’t know much about lawful rulers, and that he supposes that Morgase was a good queen, but they had to fend for themselves, and so they did. At the same time, he realizes that Maighdin reminds him of Elayne. He wonders if Maighdin might be Andoran. He tells her that things aren’t as bad in Andor as she might have heard, that Caemlyn was quiet the last time he was there and that the Dragon Reborn intends to put Elayne on the Lion Throne.
Far from being mollified, Maighdin rounded on him, blue eyes blazing. “He intends to put her on the throne? No man puts a queen on the Lion Throne! Elayne will claim the throne of Andor by her right!”
Perrin wishes Faile would intervene, but instead Lini upbraids Maighdin for her behavior towards a lord and demands that she apologize. Perrin is surprised when Maighdin does, asking his pardon “humbly,” though she looks and sounds as proud as an Aes Sedai. He gives it, and thinks that he can hear her teeth grinding.
Faile starts to take the women off to get cleaned up, and Perrin reveals that he knows Master Gill. This startles everyone, and Gill pretends that he’s just recognized Perrin in turn. Lamgwin greets him as well, and tells Maighdin that he believes she can trust Perrin with anything she’d like to tell him.
Perrin takes him to sit under a large tree, hoping to put Gill at ease, but he’s unable to make much headway in casual conversation, especially when Lini joins them and starts lecturing Gill about giving too many details. Glaring at her, Gill explains that he had a business opportunity to import wine and went to Lugard, along with Lamgwin and Breane. They ran into Mistress Maighdin and her party on the road near Lugard. Lini interrupts to explain that they all worked for the same noble house in Murandy, until bandits burned the manor and their lady couldn’t afford to keep them. Gill continues to explain that the wine merchant had left for some reason, and because of all the trouble in the world they keep running from one danger to another, and always driven farther from Caemlyn.
Perrin considers to himself that this could be the truth, but also might be a lie, then grows frustrated with how suspicious he has become.
Why on earth would Basel Gill, of all people, lie to him? A lady’s maid, accustomed to privilege and fallen on hard times; that explained Maighdin. Some things were simple.
Gill continues to babble anxiously, but when he mentions the Seanchan taking Amador, Perrin stops him, asking if this is just rumor. Gill insists it’s true, and that he saw the soldiers and their flying creatures with his own eyes. He promises Gill that he will get them to Caemlyn eventually, and Lini decides that he seems like a good man.
She explains the tension between Maighdin and Tallanvor, how Maighdin keeps running from him because she’s afraid of her own heart. She tells Perrin to marry the two, and that they’ll both thank him for it. Alarmed and bemused, Perrin excuses himself, leaving Gill and Lini shaking fingers at each other.
Perrin returns to his tent, passing by Faile’s Tairen and Cairhien attendants, the ones who are trying to act like an Aiel society. Inside he finds Faile and Maighdin talking. Faile offers Maighdin and her friends a place in her service, and after a moment’s thought, Maighdin accepts. She leaves, and Faile tells Perrin, delightedly, that she likes Maighdin’s spirit. Perrin tells her of Lini’s request, and Faile thinks that it might be a good idea.
She’s not as worried about the Seanchan as Perrin is, confident that Perrin can deal with them when the time comes and that Rand already knows that they are in Amador. She even assures Perrin that Rand knows best how to handle the Seanchan.
When Perrin brings up destroying the Manetheren banner, however, Faile advises against it. If people believe he is trying to resurrect Manetheren—something that happens from time to time—they will not see what else Perrin is up to. Perrin is impressed with her logic, and agrees that the banner will stay.
That night, Faile leaves the tent, very careful not to wake Perrin. She makes her way through the camp quietly, passing sleeping men and Maighdin’s party talking quietly around a fire. She finds her people waiting for her in a small clearing, some of those who call their society Cha Faile, the Falcon’s Talon. Faile sent them into the town to scout around, and they have returned now to make their report. They also show Faile a map they made, on her instruction, and assure her that no one searches wagons that leave the city. Faile praises their work, and begins to give them more instructions.
Maighdin, for that is her name now, lies awake, unable to sleep. Tallanvor comes up to kneel beside her, asking why she took service and that he doesn’t believe for a moment that it’s in service of making a new life for herself. She angrily reminds him that the Dragon Reborn has plans for Elayne, and that the Light must have brought her to one of the Dragon’s henchmen for a reason. Tallanvor is angry about this, reminding her that Elayne is safe in the White Tower and that there is nothing “Maighdin Dorlain” can do about the Amyrlin Seat, the Dragon Reborn, or the Lion Throne except get herself killed.
“Maighdin Dorlain can watch!” she broke in, at least partly to stop that awful litany. “She can listen! She can…!” Irritably, she trailed off. What could she do?
She composes herself, and tells him that she will do whatever she can do, and when the chance comes to help Elayne, she will take it. Tallanvor tells her that is a dangerous decision, reminding her of how Perrin threatened to hang anyone who looked at him the wrong way. And Balwer might betray her. Contemptuously, she tells Tallanvor that if he is afraid, he should ride on.
“Ride on if you wish, you say. Once, there was a soldier loved a queen from afar, knowing it was hopeless, knowing he could never dare speak. Now the queen is gone, and only a woman remains, and I hope. I burn with hope! If you want me to leave, Maighdin, say it. One word. ‘Go!’ A simple word.”
She opens her mouth to say it, but no matter how she tries, she can’t get the word out. She expects him to laugh, but instead he leans in and kisses her eyes, and tells her that if she had told him to go he would have given up all hope, but would never have left her side.
Once he has gone, she lies awake still, furious at Tallanvor for being right when she doesn’t want him to be, worrying over being caught and used against Elayne instead of gaining the chance to help her, and upbraiding herself for not being able to let go of her old life.
In the back of her head, a small voice laughs at her for trying to continue to affect things, despite the ruin she has made of everything so far. She tries to ignore it, but when she finally falls asleep, she can still feel the touch of his lips on her eyelids.
One of the consistent themes throughout The Wheel of Time is lack of correct information. From the way news travels and gets distorted over long distances, to the personal misunderstandings between men and women, or the clashes between people from different cultures, many of the conflicts in the story either arise from, or are made worse by, misinformation. Rand, of course, is a nexus for people’s incorrect assumptions about the Dragon Reborn, and is often blamed for the evil acts of others, such as the Seanchan, Whitecloaks, or the Forsaken (see: the Dragon Reborn killed Morgase). And even his allies misinterpret his actions, seeing him as arrogant or wondering if he’s going mad. Sometimes they’re right, of course, but other times if they only knew what Rand was thinking, they would realize that something very different was going on.
I see a lot of that Rand in Perrin in these chapters. His rage reaction to the injustices committed by the Prophets’s men, and his frustration that he didn’t do anything about the rumored horrors until now, feels very Rand. And his speech to the captured man reminded me very much of Rand’s speech to the Aiel chiefs in The Fires of Heaven.
“If any man takes a penny more than the fifth, or a loaf of bread without payment, if he burns so much as a hut because it belongs to a treekiller, or kills a man who is not trying to kill him, that man will I hang, whoever he is.”
Perrin doesn’t believe that he is a leader, or that he wants to be a leader, but this moment shows otherwise, even if he doesn’t realize it. He takes personal responsibility for the actions of the Prophet’s men, and believes with his whole heart that he needs to stop it. But these men aren’t acting in his name, aren’t from his home or even his country, and aren’t hurting anyone he knows or is responsible for. And yet, he wants to come in and change things. He does it because it’s right and just, and that is something Perrin believes in. But his instinctual move to take charge shows that he has the instincts of a leader, and sooner or later he’s going to realize that he only has the power to enact this sort of change because he is a leader, and one that many people are willing to follow.
Perrin’s journey in this is also very similar to Rand’s—Perrin is just less far along that path, and has a little more room to continue to protest. Neither man is a simple shepherd/blacksmith anymore, but Perrin has a lot more wiggle room to remain in denial than Rand has.
And just as Rand’s anger in the face of injustice is often misread, we see Perrin being misread here by Morgase and her party. Tallanvor believes that Perrin really would hang someone who looked at him the wrong way, and doesn’t seem to consider the qualifier that Perrin’s rage was in response to seeing the necklace of ears. Of course, since Perrin is one of Rand’s agents, he is bound to be viewed with the same suspicion and fear that Rand is. The fact that he has mysterious yellow eyes is going to alarm people as well—usually a blend of man and beast aspects marks Shadowspawn, hence the Aes Sedai thinking that wolfbrothers are darkfriends.
But we can see the difference between how Morgase and the others interpret Perrin’s actions without all the facts and the way Faile, who knows Perrin, reads the situation. Tallanvor’s read of Perrin is fairly understandable, given the little Tallanvor has to go on, but it’s significant to note that neither Tallanvor, nor Morgase, nor any of their companions—except possibly Balwer—seem to consider why Perrin became so enraged, or to take that into account when evaluating him.
There is also much more to Perrin’s struggles to be understood than yellow eyes and association with the Dragon Reborn, and I think his conversation with Morgase about the “rebellion” in the Two Rivers really highlighted the reason why. Perrin isn’t just a blacksmith turned hero, he’s from a part of the world where even the concept of nobility and rulers is little more than a story. He isn’t going from being the servant to the served, he’s going from a place where there were no servants to suddenly having to command them. In becoming a leader and a de facto noble, he is being asked to learn an entire culture from scratch. And I don’t think that is something that Faile understands; when she sees him push back against behaving like a lord, she probably understands that Perrin has come up in the world and is uncomfortable with it. But she might not realize exactly how alien the whole experience looks and feels to him: If he had been a servant himself, he would at least understand what that experience is like and it might help direct him, even if he still didn’t like being the one to give orders. But he doesn’t.
Faile also doesn’t understand Perrin’s modesty, or his discomfort with being a leader, because that isn’t the kind of men she’s known growing up. Saldean culture between husbands and wives is very different from Andoran relationships, as we’ve seen, and Faile was raised in a noble household, so of course she’s accustomed to men with a certain kind of ambition—men who are raised to govern and taught to lead from a young age. And modesty doesn’t seem to be very prized in Saldaea, while it is in Andor.
Elayne and Aviendha have had some similar difficulties, actually. The Aiel’s ideas about what strengths and weaknesses you can and can’t show, what actions are shameful and which bring honor, are very different from the Andorans. There is a lot of overlap, of course, but the type of humility Elayne often displays is very puzzling for Aviendha, as is the fact that certain physical weaknesses (like Nynaeve’s seasickness) are not considered embarrassing to display.
But Aviendha and Elayne are better at communicating about these than Faile and Perrin are. Although Aviendha has some very particular and painful issues around how she is changing, she is also eager to learn more about Elayne’s attitudes and the culture she comes from. Elayne, in turn, is adopting certain Aiel ways, going so far as to choose to adopt aspects of ji’e’toh to please Aviendha. Perrin and Faile, however, are yet to make many attempts to meet in the middle. Perrin is treating Faile the way he would be expected to treat a Two Rivers woman, and then is surprised when she wants something different from him. And Faile reacts to his blunders as though he were a Saldaean man, without seeming to consider that the Two Rivers might have different customs, that it isn’t reasonable to interpret Perrin’s actions through a purely Saldean lens or to expect him to know what she wants him to do. Indeed, as we’ve seen, his attempts to ask for clarification are always rebuffed, for some reason that isn’t entirely clear to me.
Few people in this story have very forthcoming natures, but Perrin is actually better than most, despite the reasons he has to hide. He is so practical and straightforward as a person that he has to recognize that communication is necessary to solve interpersonal problems. Unfortunately, his wife isn’t meeting him there, and it’s really frustrating to read. And I wonder where they will end up when all is said and done. If they settle in the Two Rivers, Faile will need to understand and adopt at some Andoran attitudes, at least in public. Otherwise she might very well look like the bad guy to Perrin’s people, as she can occasionally to the reader.
This problem with Faile is one of the reasons I appreciated the time these two chapters spent reminding us why Faile and Perrin love each other. This is especially significant in the section from Faile’s point of view, which allows us to understand her actions and motivations, rather than to remain puzzled and frustrated alongside Perrin. We see her determination to protect him, her respect for his gentleness and kindness, her admiration for his deliberate, penetrating intelligence. And I especially liked the moment when she told him off for indirectly calling himself a fool.
“And don’t call yourself an idiot, Perrin t’Bashere Aybara. Not even sideways, like that. You aren’t, and I do not like it.” Her scent was tiny spikes, not true anger but definitely displeased.
I relate a lot to Perrin. I see myself as someone who is slower and more deliberate in thought, not as quick as my partner or friends. And while I know I’m still very intelligent, I can sometimes find myself falling into the same trap that Perrin does, contrasting myself against those quick people I love and admire, and worrying that I am, in fact, stupid by comparison. I’d be lying if I claimed that my partner has never told me off in a very similar way that Faile does here.
Though he can sometimes benefit from a gentle push, Perrin’s deliberateness is a strength, not a weakness, and you can see how well he and Faile’s different natures complement each other. It’s only when the culture clash comes up that they fall out of rhythm, and I’m really hoping that they’ll be able to make some progress on this matter soon.
There are many characters who are misjudged, even by their allies, in The Wheel of Time, and many people around whom there is misinformation and misunderstanding that leads to suffering for both them and their friends. But perhaps the most painful situation, even more than Rand, is Morgase’s. After all, even she doesn’t have all the information about how she ended up where she is, and she is still paying the price for what she believes is a mistake that she made, when in fact she was a blameless victim of Rahvin’s Compulsion.
I really don’t like the relationship between Morgase and Tallanvor. I want to like it, what with the chivalric romance vibes and everything, but given Morgase’s situation and treatment by everyone around her, I just can’t. For one, Tallanvor is, or at least was, one of the people who hold Morgase’s actions while under Rahvin’s spell against her, believing that she failed in her duty as Queen, abandoning her subjects for careless and foolish reasons. This isn’t his fault, since he doesn’t know who Lord Gaebril was—again, that lack of information hurts our heroes—but since the reader knows that Morgase isn’t at fault, that tension is hard to stomach. Much worse, though, is the fact that Morgase has been raped both by Rahvin and by Valda. She doesn’t fully know that the experiences with “Gaebril” were non-consensual, of course, but given that she was basically magic-roofied, her mind and body are still going to understand the experience as rape, if only subconsciously. And even aside from sex, consenting or not, Morgase’s last experience of being “in love” with a man led to her being betrayed, usurped, and forced to go on the run in disguise. Seeing herself at fault is only going to make her even more apprehensive of any romantic feelings that she experiences going forward.
The narrative also dwells on her feeling of being exposed when she realizes she’s sitting beside Tallanvor in nothing but her shift. Jordan often lingers on descriptions this way—he does it two more times in this chapter alone, with Faile and with the female members of her little spy group—for the reader’s enjoyment. But all I could think of was that Morgase’s experiences with Valda were still very recent, and perhaps it’s too early for people to be pushing her to think of anyone in a sexual way. Of course, Morgase blames herself for that too, and she hardly received any support from Lini.
Lini, who is urging Perrin to marry Tallanvor and Morgase more or less against her will. That was a difficult bit to read, I must say, especially when Lini ended with the claim that Morgase will be happy about it eventually. Morgase’s agency has been deeply eroded since Rahvin arrived in Caemlyn, and in a myriad of ways, including sexually. And now a woman who is supposed to love and protect Morgase is asking yet another man, one Morgase is afraid, or at least wary, of, to make the decision for her, against her stated wishes and every action she’s taken (she literally ran away from Tallanvor!) because Lini claims to know that Morgase really wants it.
And the kicker is, I don’t think the narrative is aware of the problems here. I could be wrong, but I get the sense that we are supposed to believe Lini, that the narrative concurs with her assessment of the situation. The text isn’t unsympathetic to Morgase’s difficulties, and it doesn’t dismiss her conflicted nature as being stupid or weak, necessarily. But women have been married off, and women have been raped, “for their own good,” often enough in real life that I found Lini’s claim intensely disturbing. Unless we later get some big turnaround where Lini and Tallanvor acknowledge how they are treating Morgase, I think that Jordan has really missed the mark in this section.
And to top it all off, Tallanvor’s conversation with Morgase at the end of Chapter 8 is mostly trying to convince her that she’s helpless and can’t do anything. I understand that he’s worried for her safety, but even when Perrin was trying to keep Faile out of harm’s way he was aware that it was for his own sake more than hers, and he never called her helpless. What is it that Tallanvor loves about Morgase, anyway? He loved her “from afar” when she was a Queen, but he barely knew her. Now that she’s “just a woman” he mostly has been angry with her for messing up her queenship and for trying to still do things. Jordan kind of likes to let the falling in love parts happen off screen, but I think he should give us a little bit more than this, especially given everything I said above.
Well, sorry to end this post on a rage note, but I guess the way Morgase’s story has been handled is my cord of ears. Next week we’ll cover Chapters 9 and 10, and there will be a lot more discussion of culture clashes, this time focused on the wetlanders vs the Wise ones vs the Aes Sedai.
Sylas K Barrett is on book eight of the series and has definitely looked at the maps plenty, but he was still today years old when he realized that the country is called Ghealdan, not Ghealda.
“that the narrative concurs with her assessment of the situation”…
Given Perrin’s internal reaction to the idea, I don’t think this is correct, at all…
@1: It’s an understandable interpretation, given how Elayne’s POVs have her thinking very highly of Lini. Though for me, it’s her actions in Winter’s Heart that really grates my cheese.
This is as good a point as any to bring it up. I’ve never gotten into WoT fanfic. However, to anyone into it, how much Perrin/Gaul slashfic is out there (as that seems to be one of the more probable non-canon pairings to provoke inspiration).
@2 It’s an understandable interpretation of what Lini thinks; so far as I can tell, the narrative does not pass judgment at all…
@1: Perrin’s reaction is mostly about him not feeling like he has the authority to marry people. What Sylas is speaking to is the narrative’s suggestion that Morgase’s discomfort with Tallanvor is rooted in illegitimate reasons that will fade over time (which isn’t what Perrin is concerned about or even aware of). RJ writes this as if Morgase is just letting her pride interfere with her authentic feelings, which is a fine storyline in abstract, but its clear he’s not giving anything close to due consideration to how Morgase has been repeatedly raped (and that her entire identity has been largely robbed from her as a result).
This is one of the first sections where I wondered why I was supposed to like Morgase. She has demonstrated determination and force of will despite abdication and her capture to escape both Gaebril and the Whitecloaks, but she has no clear reason for distrusting Rand (or, by extension, his troops). The leap she takes to decide Elayne would be a puppet of Rand’s (and that, despite having met him because Elayne vouched for him in book 1) felt like it lacked support on the page.
I was also always bothered that her reaction to hearing Rand wanted to restore Trankard continuity to the throne was to be affronted. If he is actually the Dragon Reborn, the way he’s going to give up the throne is to put someone else on it, appoint a steward, or die. I never understood how Morgase assumed she could take the throne from him.
Essentially, this is one of the places RJ seemed to be creating conflict and confusion for the sake of confusion, and it (my first read) really buried all of the trauma Morgase was going through.
@5 I think a good comparison would be if a conqueror suggested appointing the next President of the United States. Even if they said they would appoint the person who’d won an election, that’s just not how a person becomes President. It would suggest that the US is a possession to be disposed of. That it might be disposed to the “right” person doesn’t make that disposition any better.
One of the problems from Morgase’s point of view is that nobody in this part of the storyline, including herself, knows that Rahvin/Gaebril has been through her brain with a Roto-Rooter. So she’s judging herself based on the assumption that things he Compelled her to do are instead a result of her own weak character and mistaken judgment. Which is definitely a huge problem. Certainly her uncertainty about herself and her reactions, while not unreasonable, doesn’t make her sections an easy read.
@6:
I follow, to a degree. It still assumes that Rand is a conqueror, and although she doesn’t know who Gaebril was, she knows he was trying to take over her throne.
Mechanically, Rand is ruling Andor. The options for succeeding him are still 1) he voluntarily abdicates, 2) someone else takes Andor from him by force, or 3) he (the Dragon Reborn) dies and there is a succession crisis. We don’t know how she thinks Elayne can make herself queen, so her fervor that Elayne will do so of her own right feels naive. To this point, we ate supposed to think of Morgase as temperamental but just (see ignoring Elaida and Byrne’s counsel re: Rand in book 1 and telling Gaebril not to torture Mat in book 3) and this response is certainly fiery, but it doesn’t make sense based on what we are supposed to assume about her not feeling violence for the sake of violence is worth it.
@5,6 I think the frustration I have with Morgase and Elayne being so insulted about the idea of Rand “giving” Elayne the throne is that they’re basically ignoring the fact that Rand had to conquer the country to take it away from Rahvin and that he is currently ruling there, so therefore anyone Rand allows to take rulership from him without using force is de facto being given the throne. So, sure , in the example given of a conqueror “appointing” whomever is lawfully elected to be the next president, that’s not how it’s supposed to work… but also, the US isn’t “supposed” to be conquered and ruled by a foreign power, either.
I don’t think the narrative takes any stance on the matter of Morgase and Tallanvor. Jordan really likes to have his characters act – like well the people they are. Lini is an old crone, who likes to meddle and is convinced she knows best for everyone. Of *course* she would act exactly like this.
It would be deeply unrealistic and immersion-breaking if she didn’t. And it’s balanced by other characters like Perrin and his values.
My only issue with the Morgase/Tallanvor story is their interactions with each other. I think Jordan slightly misses the mark on those. Nothing major – taken individually they all hold up to how their characters are and develop, but there’s just something slightly off about them taken in aggregate. Kinda like the uncanny valley of some AI images.
@5 her being affronted by Rand’s actions is entirely in character, and we see Elayne acting the exact same (despite her feelings for Rand). Andor has a history that makes any man claiming power – even if only the power to determine what woman will rule – suspect.
@8,9 Right, but he doesn’t need to give the throne to anyone when he abdicates. What Morgase wants, and as he eventually does, is for him to get out of the way and lets the Andorans figure out who’s supposed to be Queen and not bestow the Lion Throne as if he has a legal right to do so.
Just a minor point, but it always drove me nuts that Perrin couldn’t recognize Morgase as Elayne’s mother – the resemblance, the shared stunning beauty and distinctive red-gold hair – are commented on several times, and Perrin has spent a good deal of time around Elayne. I know it would be a cognitive leap to assume that random Jane al’Schmoe in Ghealdan is the fugitive Queen of Andor, but still.
This entire plot development struck me as RJ inserting “drama” and inventing a roadblock for their own sake and not in furtherance of a plot development.
@12. As far as Perrin is aware, Morgase is dead – it was this belief that triggered Rand ‘s invasion of Caemlyn. This makes it easier to to understand how he didn’t recognize her.
I am so glad that apparently everyone else also felt the same frustrations as me reading the books at this point. Even if it is character for Morgase, or especially Elayne, of they had just communicated with people then things would be so much better. Elayne more than anyone frustrates me on this one, as she is essentially one of Rands most significant allies, his early politics instructor, and and a person whose advice is critical to him. When things like travelling become common everywhere it really starts to frustrate me how some of the most important characters, who know that they need to be working together, just don’t tal enough.
So back in ACOS, Sylas was wanting to do an essay on women, consent, rape, etc. after what happened between Valda and Morgase (and I think there was something else–something about Faile, Perrin, and Saldaean customs?) but everyone emphatically agreed this needed to wait until the Mat/Tylin thing played out. I know Mat and Tylin will continue throughout WH, but it feels like that essay could be done now, and probably should since Morgase and her situation has come up again. So, are there any plans about that?
Mods, if you could ask Sylas, it’d be great to know!
For Morgase, Sanderson makes it explicit that her storyline is supposed to be about her denying her own desires while she was Queen and then having her agency taken away from her via imprisonment and rape and then eventually reclaiming her agency by being with Tallanvor because she wanted him the whole time. Unfortunately I think the last part kind of failed in the execution.
Though in terms of whether Perrin should just marry her and Tallanvor, like six books down the line in Towers of Midnight when he tries to do it Morgase quite rightly hands his ass to him.
@12, re Perrin really knowing Elaine. I don’t really think he has spent much time at all with her. The only time I can think of when he and Elayne spent a long period of time in the same place was in the Stone after Book 3 and she spent most of her time with Rand and Perrin spent most of his time with Faile. Then they went their separate ways, and really haven’t seen each other since.
I really think this idea of the narrative ‘approving’ or ‘disapproving’ of things doesn’t always work in Wheel of Time because all of the narrations are filtered through their tight POVs. I do think it’s fair to call out what Jordan chooses to spend his time/words on in terms of descriptions and plotting, or even creating this scenario to start with. However, I do not get the impression that Jordan himself views his narrative as having some ‘responsibility’ to preach the right ideals, if that makes sense.
All that said, yes, Morgase’s whole plight is pretty painful to read, and why Jordan chose to set it up that way (and what we are supposed to take from it) is interesting. I don’t really care for the Tallanvor pairing either in part because I don’t really love the whole worshipful/chivalric vibe. I agree that Jordan also didn’t quite handle how a rape/coercion victim would be reacting as well as he should have either.
As for Lini, I don’t know – I get the impression she is supposed to be one of those no-nonsense characters who assumes they know best and still considers her charges to be children. She may be right in that it’s inevitable they are going to get together (in that she can see past all the will they/won’t they tension and can tell Morgase really has feelings for him) but not necessarily right in just forcing it. Which, Perrin thankfully recognizes!
Also, yeah, stuff with Faile and Perrin will totally get resolved “quickly” LOL.
@9: thank you, that is what I was struggling to articulate. Anyone Rand isn’t trying to stop is being endorsed by him, and functionally given the crown.
@11: I guess because we don’t know how Andor works politically, that doesn’t track (at this point in the books). We assume Elayne would be the next queen with her mother “dead” and there is no reason to believe it should be different. Rand and Perrin are ostensibly Andormen and have no idea why the hereditary passage of power isn’t supposed to automatically convey, and Morgase’s tirade here suggests that it, in fact, won’t automatically convey.
Rand doesn’t successfully (overtly) hand her the throne, but he does have the power to tell the Aiel to not listen when she tells them to leave. Knowing what happens and that Morgase and Elayne feel Elayne became queen of her own power doesn’t make it less confusing that they both are seem okay with the succession crisis/civil war that wracks the country immediately ahead of the last battle.
@19 because if there wasn’t a succession crisis, given that Morgase apparently died/actually abdicated under such uncertain circumstances, Elayne wouldn’t have been legitimately Queen. Her struggle with other claimants was necessary to affirm that she, and her house, were the rightful successors to Morgase. If Rand had directly given the throne to Elayne, it would have deprived the houses of their power to select a queen when the succession is unclear. Even in societies where force of arms is a legitimate means to effect the transfer of power, there are limits to how far strength alone can take you.
I was happy when, late in the series (I forget which book), Morgase finally learned the truth about Gaebril’s identity and what he had done to her.
Perrin does notice that Maighdin looks like Elayne, but he has no reason to think they are actually related.
@21: I believe it’s either Knife of Dreams or The Gathering Storm.
@20:
That’s my whole issue. We are told Morgase’s abdication is irrevocable and immediately afterwards Lini pulls her off away from a window. Nothing on the page tells us that her language of abdication (“I renounce the Rose Crown and delicate the Lion Throne to Elayne, high seat of house Trakand”) isn’t legally and fully effective from that moment.
It’s an inconsistency that feels minor *except* for her “Elayne will take the crown of her own power” rant. There is no need for her to be angry at Perrin (or even Rand) that Rand wants to put her on a throne that Morgase gave her in Book 7. It reads like a situation that could be fixed by talking to literally any noble other than Perrin, and because she never does *and* let’s hundreds of soldiers die in an Andoran civil war it feels selfish, petty, and foolish. There is no reason she shouldn’t want Rand to renounce the crown *to Elayne* in the same manner she did except that she is prideful and wasteful of soldiers.
Errata:
“Ae Sedai” → “Aes Sedai”
“Perin” → “Perrin”
“Tallavor” → “Tallanvor”
“or trying” → “for trying”
“dispite” → “despite”
And that last paragraph of the recap shouldn’t be a blockquote.
“from from” → “from”
“compliment” → “complement”
I can’t agree with this. My impression of the entire Wheel of Time is that the characters have plenty of opinions and many of them are judgmental, but the narrative never passes judgment. Every opinion is a character’s opinion, not the narrator’s. This situation is no exception.
@beingmused (4):
That’s not what Perrin says to Faile in my copy of the book. He’s clearly upset about the idea of just marrying people regardless of what they themselves say.
Perrin otherwise complains a lot about being called a lord, which he doesn’t feel entitled to, but there’s no trace of that in that particular passage.
birgit @@@@@ 22, thank you – I did not remember that passage, but it still feels like a cop-out, especially since his perceptive abilities are heightened by his super-special wolfy-sense. It would have been narratively consistent to sense that have a shared scent, or something.
brent @@@@@ 17, they were all in the Stone for a period, and I know that we are informed that Perrin et al did not spend a lot of time around Rand et al, or the Supergirls, but certainly someone with Elayne’s beauty and distinctive coloring would have stood out among the Tairens. If nothing else, Faile would have scoped out a high-ranking noblewoman and beautiful girl in their midst, if only to cast a wary, protective eye on her..
One of the things it’s easy to forget about Faile is that she is significantly younger than Perin and is the youngest of the new political movers and shakers. The boys are just turned 20 at the start of EotW, Egewen, Elayne and Avienda are a couple years younger, Min a couple older and Faile when we first meet her is all of 16. As smart and as well educated in the arts of ruling as she is, she is still a sophomore.
One of the consequences of her lack of experience is that not only does she not know how to articulate the unspoken rules of Saldean society(especially the ones relating to relationships) but she hasn’t grasped that Perin has different rules AND DOSEN’T KNOW the ones she is playing by. Something summed up in the old male/female fight trope of “well if you don’t know I’m not going to tell you.”
This is complicated by the fact that Perin does act Saldean often enough for her to think he does know them but it’s just his personality not his culture that makes him behave incorrectly. Further aggravated by the fact that those Saldean style outbursts are something that Perin associates with losing control to the Wolf.
Morgase should know better, but she is also struggling with the Two Rivers “What’s this Queen thing you speak of?” response in the exact same way.
Of all the characters in WoT Egwene is far and away the best at recognizing, absorbing and then consciously and deliberately applying different cultural rulesets. It’s part if what makes her so formidable.
Re: Morgase’s sexual assault PTSD, sadly from the experience of a very dear loved one I know that rape you feel you have consented to puts some very particular twists in your brain regarding how you judge your ability to make decisions. Especially romantic ones. So the diagnosis of Morgase being afraid of her own heart is correct. It’s just the treatment is completely of base.
I feel like if anyone should understand Perrin’s actions here, it’s an infamously short-tempered former queen… It feels like kind of a silly excuse to keep Morgase from telling Perrin who she is. I think a lot of little choices like that contribute to this whole arc turning into the PLOD.
I grant that it can be frustrating to read, but the problems created by characters not communicating clearly and forthrightly with one another is one of the core themes of the entire Wheel of Time. Love it or hate it, the fact that things go badly when people don’t talk to one another was one of RJ’s whole points.
Also, another nit: Rand does not have “the crown” of Andor, neither the literal Rose Crown nor the figurative one. He’s not the king of Andor, he’s a conqueror, occupier and de facto dictator. I’m not loading those terms in any way; Rand did the right thing, but that’s still what he is. It’s different from Illian, where the Council of Nine took the initiative and and legally proclaimed him King of Illian and gave him the Laurel Crown. ANYWAY, conquerors are never legal, by definition. They come in and take power by force in spite of the laws of a place. So of course there’s no legal process that anyone in Andor would recognize for a conqueror to devolve sovereignty onto someone else, so Rand cannot just “abdicate” a crown that he doesn’t have. Is the war of succession petty and foolish? Foolish, yes, on the part of Arymilla who did not have the solid support she thought she did. But given Elayne’s leadership qualities, her right to the throne, and the need to have a strong Andor in the Last Battle, I don’t see how she had any other choice. It’s not surprising that there were other claimants, given that nobody involved had perfect knowledge of the whole situation. And she knows that her own rule would be viewed with suspicion by the people if Rand gave it to her. I think it was handled realistically.
Re: Recognizing Morgase. This sounds similar to me to the story from the Gospels about how the women closest to Jesus didn’t recognize him on Easter morning because they were sure he was dead. And the situation Perrin found “Maighdin’s” situation is pretty far from the splendor he probably imagines Morgase lived in, so I’m not surprised he didn’t make that connection.
Re: Faile, she’s not that much younger. Early editions of TDR and LOC erroneously said that she was “of an age with Ewin Finngar” which would have made her 15 (!) when she met Perrin, but this was corrected in later printings. https://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/Wiki.jsp?page=Errata%20and%20Corrigenda . I’ve seen her birth year given as 981 NE, which would make her 17-18 when we meet her, and 18-19 now in TPOD. So, roughly the same age as Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha. All that said, an 18-year-old isn’t fully formed either and is lacking lots of experience, so all the other points made @27 I think still stand.
@29: I think you’re responding to the political aspect that doesn’t make sense to me (and causes me to question if I’m a fan of Morgase).
Rand is a de facto ruler of Andor because he killed the actual usurper (Gaebril) and repeatedly told everyone who would listen he is waiting for Elayne. We’re past the point where he’s stripped Colavere of title and nobility for taking a crown of a nation he conquered. At this point, again, we’ve been told on the page that 1) there will be no succession crisis because Elayne is qualified, 2) that Morgase explicitly abdicated the throne “to Elayne, high seat of House Trankard” in book 7, and 3) that Rand has been running Andor from Caemlyn through the proper channels while refusing to sit on the throne. The reason Morgase’s reaction to Perrin in these chapters doesn’t make sense is because we know nothing about the process, or why Elayne should need to take the crown of her own right. Elayne spends forever telling everybody who will listen that she’s a princess, understood to be next in line for the throne, and Morgase here implies that’s somehow not a given.
Either the throne can be passed by blood, and Elayne, where ever she is, should be the only claimant, or the process of naming a daughter-heir was an unnecessary misdirect. Any challenger to Elayne is an attempted conqueror, and either the rules/laws don’t support them, or (because we see the civil war) conquerors like Rand can, in fact, legally rule and pass possession of the throne whether or not they wear the crown. (See also the sea folk deal giving land in andor because end holds the country.)
@30: ‘Either the throne can be passed by blood…’
Yes, but that’s exactly why there’s multiple succession crises in Andoran history – Elayne explains it to Rand at one point, that eligibility for the crown is restricted to female descendants of Ishara, which is basically female Andoran aristocrats. They’re all massively intermarried over the centuries, so the more times you’re descended from Ishara, the more eligible you are. Most of the time this runs mother to daughter-heir, so it looks like a traditional blood inheritance, but it’s actually not, it’s that the daughter-heir will have the same/more lines of descent and (usually) a secure political position. When there’s no daughter-heir, it goes back to the wider pool of eligibility, so they’re all back counting their lines of descent and manoeuvring for influence. None of these people are conquerors, because they’re all local nobility descended from Ishara.
You’re thinking of the traditional father-son (or mother-daughter) situation where both legitimacy and power come from the parent being the monarch. Andor’s inheritance rules are more complex, where legitimacy is just as much from descent from a common distant ancestor as from a parent, and the parent’s political power ensures the ability to hand over the crown to their child unchallenged. There is a point where Morgase thinks about the fact that Trakand has only managed to hang on to the crown for two generations, which is all about political power and influence – this is not a Divine Right of Kings (or Queens) scenario.
Rand is an external conqueror, which is why they’re all so pissed at him coming in and taking over because he’s outside the traditional pool of acceptable candidates. The irony is that he actually is eligible by descent, although disqualified by gender, but none of the character have worked this out at this point.
I’ve never been a fan of Morgase’s plot line. She goes through a ton of pain and suffering and it serves no real purpose to the narrative to dwell on it because really, she doesn’t solve any problems that couldn’t be solved another way.
That said, I disagree with some of Sylas’s takes. I think the narrative very much acknowledges that Morgase is traumatized and doesn’t trust either her judgement or her emotions in the wake of her multiple rapes, and is on her side as much as the narrative takes sides. I think Lini is a highly conservative woman who has stewed for years over Morgase carrying on with Thom, Bryne, and then Gaebril without marrying. That was a royal privilege and now that Morgase is a commoner she has no excuse in Lini’s mind. I also think that having witnessed Morgase nearly throw herself out a window, Lini is taking extreme positions to try and counteract that. Recall that in this world, marriage is also a solution that some Aes Sedai advocate for stilled women to help them survive. I don’t think the narrative is necessarily agreeing with her though. I do agree that the narrative’s “position” is that Morgase and Tallanvor do love each other at this point, and have spent enough time around each other to really know it.
As for Andoran succession, I think it’s a little simpler than people are making it. You have to be related to Ishiara to have a claim, but that’s not really the crux of it or why the Daughter-Heir usually inherits without a problem. Continuity is valued in any government, and if the current ruling family is doing fine there’s no appetite for a costly Succession and the Daughter-Heir Succeeds by acclaim. But it’s still a Succession, just not a contested one. Elayne has to actually fight for hers because she takes too long to go to Caemlyn and her mother did some wildly unpopular things (under Compulsion). Rand leaving and letting them work it out was the right thing to do but he has no real way of knowing that. And actually he probably does buy time for Elayne even if he also complicates things for her.
I think everyone’s moved on from this one at this point but I’d like to point out something that seems to have been missed. Rand kills Rhavin within an incredibly short time of Morgase’s “death.” So quickly that many don’t even realise that Rhavin had taken control of Andor, and even thought that Rand had killed Morgase. To many the succession in Andor seems to go, murkily, from Morgase to Rand to TBD. Though I was always frustrated by the lack of narrative credit Rand is given for his constant insistence that Elayne will hold the lion and Sun thrones, and the fact that he never wavers in that, even u to the point of stripling the most powerful noblewoman in the land of her titles.
Nigel @@@@@ 33 –
“I was always frustrated by the lack of narrative credit Rand is given for his constant insistence that Elayne will hold the lion and Sun thrones,”
While I do commend his consistency to protect both Elayne’s legacy and also to cement the government of a large powerful nation into the hands of one his most reliable and capable allies, I always resented that he threw Cairhien into the mix. Elayne’s claim flows through her Damodred blood via her father, but there are numerous other candidates he could have chosen, including Moiraine.
Also, I know that the Randlandian succession rules are murky and not at all based primogeniture, either agnatic or cognatic, but surely imposing his lover, who most certainly would be seen as foreign (more Andoran than Cairhienin) who is the third and youngest child of a former royal prince when she has two living brothers and many other blood relatives on the Sun Throne should be a recipe for political disaster. It’s not even like Elayne would be available for a political marriage to a suitable high-ranking Cairhienin lord to make the imposition more palatable. I